Livecast #6: Ron Cao of Sky9 Capital, A 20 Year China VC on Semis, SPACs and Blockchain

Recorded March 9, 2021 on Clubhouse as part of the Inside Asia Club.

Ron Cao has spent 20 years as a venture capitalist in China. He first went there during the 90s when semiconductor investing was a thing, but then found himself investing in consumer internet startups such as ByteDance and Pinduoduo because that sector yielded the greatest return, and is now finding himself investing in semiconductors again. During the one hour session, we talk about lots of things, including:

3:35 Has the pandemic changed your thesis that the next China is (rural) China?

6:50 Is deeptech investing in China really taking off?

9:23 What kind of background teams -- returnees -- are you funding?

11:28 Thoughts on blockchain -- Ron was the one who told CZ of Binance about Bitcoin!

14:28 Since we're talking about blockchain, why not talk about SPACs!

15:45 Chinese companies expanding abroad / targeting overseas markets AKA "chuhai"

18:20 Antitrust regulations ... hint: Ron thinks they're good for the ecosystem

20:05 Offline businesses going online

23:24 Financial markets are opening up, ie STAR market

Follow me @ruima on Twitter and on Clubhouse so that you can join our next live session!

TRANSCRIPT

Rui: [00:01:15] Welcome to the inside Asia club. This is the first club on Clubhouse focused on Asia, and we invite speakers from all aspects of life in Asia to talk about what's happening on the continent. My name is Rui Ma. I am the co-host of Tech Buzz China, which is a podcast as well as now, a community for funds and operators interested in diving deep into China tech.

[00:01:38] And today I have the great pleasure of having Ron Cao here. Me and Ron met in Shanghai where Ron has been investing in China for 20 years. So his background is that he started off at KLM ventures and then he was at Lightspeed China. And now he has his own fund called Sky9. So some of Ron's [00:02:00] investments, some of you may have heard of. They include FangDD, ByteDance, Meituan, Pinduoduo, QingCloud, Tujia, et cetera to name a few. 

Today's topic, as you can see is called the next China is China. Right? I actually recently wrote a short column for the Wire China, which is a publication focused on China called The Next China is China and they came from Ron. Actually, the basic idea is that there are about 400 million people, give or take, living in what I'm going to call developed China.

[00:02:31] They have lifestyles that are very similar to what we see here in the developed countries in the west. But there are something like a billion people in China who live in quite different conditions. And actually last year, the government said that there are 600 million people who live on incomes of less than $150 a month.

[00:02:49] So that's quite different from the average citizen in Beijing or Shanghai. And they have very different needs. So when I asked Ron last year, right before the pandemic threw things [00:03:00] out of whack, and we met up in San Francisco, I asked him if he was going to invest in Southeast Asia or India or all these growing places.

[00:03:07] And he’s like looked at me and said, no, Rui, like I'm going to stick with investing in China. The next China is in China. I interviewed Hu Boyu recently as well. And he also said that he was focused on rural or developing China because it's growing at 10% a year. So while the whole country might be growing at 6%, rural China is growing at 10%, which is still very high.

[00:03:30] So having given you all of that as background, I am just going to jump straight into questions because we do have a very limited amount of time with Ron today. So first question for you, Ron has, since we spoke last year, has the pandemic changed your opinion at all on the growth of what we're calling rural China? Did it make you more fearful or more bold about this particular thesis?

Ron: The short answer is no, there's no change in that, as most of you haven't been to [00:04:00] China since the pandemic, but the country has recovered relatively well, given the severity of the circumstances. People are flocking back to malls. The retail sales I think, is at an all time high in Q4.

[00:04:10] And I think there's also quite a bit of confidence, consumer confidence in terms of how the situation was handled and there will be speedy recovery back to full normal. So I think overall, certainly there's no change in the thesis of the macro environment. I would say, perhaps, that there's even more confidence on the ground.

[00:04:26] That's a child that will come out fairly strong overall and not just domestically on the international stage. You have Q4 numbers show that exports all time heights it's being countries productive. People are confident about spending. In terms of rural parts of China, most of China is rural. I think we tend to forget that and don't see any changes in a thesis. In addition, consumers are seeing more adoption of technology.

[00:04:48] I would just add a few comments there on the enterprise side with Chinese companies looking for more efficient ways to communicate, to manage. And you're seeing opportunities perhaps even bigger today in the enterprise software side than never. And [00:05:00] I would say the third thing in terms of being a global factory is still very much intent.

[00:05:03] A lot of the production, I think we're going overseas. And a lot of that came back. I think China has proven to be very robust in terms of the supply chain unique in that way. And certain things, even though it might be cheaper in some other countries, but the overall efficiency, many of them don't rival China.

[00:05:20] So you see a lot of production, skill, capacity, still increasing and post COVID you see. In China, they're calling it post COVID because it feels that way, but you're seeing exports at an all time high as well.

Rui: Would you be able to disclose a little bit more detail on, for example, how has that changed your portfolio construction? [00:05:36] Are you spending more time on enterprise software? People are investing, for example, more in robotics. Is that something you're also pursuing? 

Ron: Yeah, we are consuming such a big market on the enterprise side. You just have a sense from top all the way to your convenience store manager, that everybody's on the same page in terms of technology is the future.

[00:05:57] We are funding enterprise [00:06:00] software, we're funding cloud infrastructure projects. There've certainly been bread and butter for some of the us VCs. And a lot of things have been played out in the U.S. they're still being played out today, database, software, SaaS. So there's still a lot of catching up to do if you would versus the U.S. enterprise market.

[00:06:17] But at the same time, we're seeing a lot of very advanced work being done in newer fields, leveraging blockchain to do enterprise security software, leveraging AI to use the time for pharmaceutical company to discover new drugs, leveraging big data, to produce the next generation business intelligence software.

[00:06:35] So you have this interesting market. We have things that you're trying to catch up on. The basic stuff that you see in the U.S. and very advanced technology applications in new fields where there's talent and there's demand and their sort of vision among some of the top ones. 

Rui: I want to just double click on some of the deep tech you're talking about things like semiconductors, genomics, all these things that are deep tech in that, I felt that in the past 10 [00:07:00] years there a ton of investors investing in, but now there's a big seismic shift where everyone's interested in all this stuff. [00:07:06] That's where China isn't necessarily catching up because it's just new for the world all over. Is that your sense? 

Ron: It is in that wave, I would say, did take place 20 years ago. There are a lot of semi investments, component investments. Then the consumer wave took over because that was such a huge way with mobile internet, e-commerce. I would say that wave is coming back where the sort of next generation infrastructure in advanced semi, in AI driven various applications.

[00:07:33] Some of them I think happened in a normal cycle. You see that in the U.S. as well. The funds that on consumer do well for maybe a decade. Then the funds that do our infrastructure do well for a decade and their funds that do well across all sectors. But you see that way. It's no different China, perhaps this time is even broader on the insurance side, because you have a new technology angle.

[00:07:50] That's really new, not just in China, but across the world. Some of the things I mentioned there are disruptive in a Cathy Wood way, if you were to think things have gone in the next 10, 20 years. 

Rui: Maybe you could explain, [00:08:00] because when you first started in 20 years ago in VC and you started in Silicon valley, you were working on semiconductor investments, correct?

Ron: [00:08:07] Yes. 

Rui: And that's what brought you to China actually. 

Ron: Yeah, that's very good. Yeah. So I started in the valley looking at telecom components, optical networking components, fabulous Semis, right around the.com bubble. Before I joined the industry in venture 99, went through the collapse and had a portfolio to manage in those sectors and things were picking up in those sectors in China as well, as part of the so-called internet boom.

[00:08:29] But the consumer experience is much bigger as soon after that infrastructure wave. So, yeah, and I think you see the same phenomenon that dollar, the entrepreneurs are international background, mostly from U.S. and Europe and they they're typically more experienced and seen opportunity in the market in China building something that either fits the market or building something that is ahead of the market in terms of leveraging new techniques.

[00:08:50] Even with our fund allocation, our first fund in 2011, I would say 80% consumer. Our latest fund in 2019, so far we're still looking 50, 50 [00:09:00] consumers internet versus enterprise. 

Rui: Okay. And then you get to go back to your roots of investing all that difficult semi stuff. 

Ron: Yeah. I mean, I did a semi deal. I would say the first one in over, [00:09:13] I can't remember how long, maybe 12, 13 years. So a refresh. 

Rui: And when you were saying that the entrepreneurs who have overseas backgrounds, you're talking about right now, more entrepreneurs with overseas backgrounds returning to China to make these businesses that have advanced technology. 

Ron: Yeah, I would say even across the board, people move around, not necessarily U.S., but there's quite a bit of folks who've gone to school in London and other parts of Europe.

[00:09:38] And we try to back people with experience, enforced sites, very much a people thesis type of investment theme in some of the top, people have done amazing things in their careers. And typically they have some international experience, whether it's living overseas or worked for an international firm, that's almost not a focus point anymore. [00:09:56] So where they're from more, what kind of experiences they had. 

Rui: Got it. [00:10:00] The requirement for talent is just much higher. Yes. Has the pandemic, has it changed at all? How do you do business? You're in Singapore right now. So is it a lot like here in the U.S. doing deals over zoom? Or is it because China got over COVID so fast that that's not as much of a thing. [00:10:15] Are you guys more open to remote first or distributed companies? 

Ron: I would say across the board, everybody's more efficient. I'd taken zoom calls with government folks. Actually, government folks are folks that are notorious for being very difficult to meet and to remember having or trying to organize a meeting.

[00:10:33] And the response is great, Ron. Call me when you land. I say, well, can we, we set up a time. So now you can actually do a schedule, a zoom call. I think that's par for the course and yeah. Entrepreneurs meeting over zoom or gene funds or angel funds. A lot of them do demo days when they go through 20 portfolios of airs raising money in one hour.

[00:10:54] I think that's the issue. It is too efficient where you have to work all the time, as the downside. There's so much to the [00:11:00] process. We looked at a deal one day where we have meetings, that's making a suite of products that make women look more made up with different makeups and the eyeliners and eye lashes.

[00:11:10] Then we go to a blockchain decentralized wallet company back to back. So that's sort of a zoom calls we have lined up. You'll be on your game. You gotta be really studied up on the latest trends and understand the different models and technology. 

Rui: I know that you're big into blockchain. Actually. I referred you certain deals before. [00:11:26] What are you thinking now when it comes to blockchain, especially in China? And then I know the two sessions also had some plans for blockchain in China. 

Ron: It's such an interesting topic as a professional investor. It's an area where there's no boundaries. Do we manage money for flies and we have boundaries of what we can do and can do.

[00:11:44] Some of it explores where that boundary is. That's a philosophical level. We're one of the early investors in the space in China. In fact, we invested in BTC China, which was the first crypto exchange out of China back in 2003 and CZ our fearless [00:12:00] leader in Binance. I think he even alluded to the podcast.

[00:12:03] I was credited as the person who told him about Bitcoins, the first person. I don't remember that night. I told him about it and he was a certain person you tell them about it. They don't get an immediate reaction. They think about it. Collin calls and gets it right away and he was very, as you can tell it’s his new passion and of course went to OK[00:12:23] Coin and he started his own exchange. So we've been early around this space. And seeing how it's evolved from the hackers to, first way would be more exchanges and some wallets, to sort of the ICO movement, which I think for the most part wasn't great, but it was part of the evolution of it, now to a defy and all the 2.0 ideas.

[00:12:42] So I think that space has taken shape. I really believe so. And there's more topics in there, more ideas, and it's so much development in there. Singapore, I spent all the time in that space in Singapore. It's not just a regional hub. It is a world hub of talent. NFT is very interesting, but I think the question is how do we invest as an equity shareholder?

[00:12:59] A lot of this stuff [00:13:00] is decentralized by nature, no company, no ownership, there's tokens and teams. So that's where we're trying to figure out certain new strategies. We do have a decent portfolio across the funds. I think we want to continue to explore there with some of the top ideas and topics. 

Rui: Would you say that your strategy when it comes to blockchain and defy, et cetera, is typical of other Chinese venture funds or you guys are among the outliers in your exposure to the space.

Ron: [00:13:26] I’m not sure. But I think we probably have more of a focus than most funds I would say. Because we were early, I think this is one of the spaces. There has to be certain beliefs and also a certain type of networks. So deal flow and all that. I think the Coinbase IPO would get more funds behind it. It's one of those spaces.

[00:13:42] We had a portfolio that I won’t mention because they haven't made the announcement. We were in there early and it didn't raise any money for a while now. They are closing around and it's a multi-billion dollar valuation. So it's one of those things that I think investors are realizing that it's moving ahead in a different way, versus the typical consumer internet deal [00:14:00] where, you know, every six months or a year, there's a markup as new investors coming, something that works in blockchain has huge network scale effect.

[00:14:06] It just kind of looks up on you and you do it. So it works. It's massive, then it fits the venture model, but it takes a while. So I think once more funds have little more exposure to it, they'll see the power of dip. And I think the upcoming IPO, Coinbase and others perhaps will fuel the space even more outside.

Rui: [00:14:24] Since we were talking about blockchain. Why not talk about specs? I meant to ask this, but I forgot. Do you think investors in China are as crazy about SPACs as we are over here? 

Ron: I think it's coming. This is the first SPAC wave ever. I would say in the history of China, perhaps. We have so many portfolio CEOs asking me, what is a SPAC so that I look into it. It's one-on-one time[00:14:46] a lot of SPACs are being raised out of Hong Kong, perhaps the U.S. looking at China. I don't think there's been a completed transaction for Chinese property. We're not focused on it. It's a different investment vehicle. If you would, a little more later stage and [00:15:00] whoever came up with originally, it's a clever thing, right?

[00:15:03] You can IPO and raise money at the same time and get more ownership. But I think over time, I think given us so much money in the market in general, it's not clear to me SPAC you'll have the top companies. ByteDance is not going on the SPAC, I don't think. Others won't, probably. So I think it's fit for a certain type of companies that might be perhaps in certain vertical markets [00:15:22] that makes more sense. I haven't thought too deeply about it, but I think certainly that wave is in front of us. You see a lot of people knocking on doors of companies, SPAC owners. 

Rui: Yeah. Well, I think Ucommune is the only startup of stature I'm aware of from China that has gone public via SPAC. I've seen a couple of other names, but I didn't even recognize the companies that we're talking about.

[00:15:43] I myself just participated in a panel for Chinese businesses going Chuhai, so going overseas, what do you think of that? Cause I remember in 2015, 16, this was all the rage, especially going to India, Africa and middle east, right? Like crazy amounts of attention. Now it seems to [00:16:00] me that a lot of the entrepreneurs I meet wanting to start companies now are actually targeting developed markets.

[00:16:05] I wonder if that is because ByteDance has been so successful and now they have like the scale deal with target. Oh yeah. I can do that too. What do you think of that? 

Ron: Yeah, that's a great observation. It is. I would say perhaps half of our portfolio companies, the new ones having the newer investments are having overseas strategy from plant-based diet company to semi company that's selling to Chinese box makers, looking at maybe other markets in Southeast Asia and Africa.

[00:16:33] Of course eCommerce. With COVID, e-commerce has been big in terms of cross-border e-commerce. Shein is a mega company that should go out sometime this year or next year. And with that kind of trend, lot more Chinese, although consumer enterprise and consumer side, are more confident that we can actually go overseas and get more market share.

[00:16:52] And the enterprise side, they have unique solutions that are we talked about a little earlier. That's world-class in terms of how they think about delivering a new structured [00:17:00] idea to the market. But just for example, the cross-border e-commerce. I will go back to that. We invested in a company called Dianjiang.

[00:17:06] That's essentially a Shopify type of play, but they're targeting Chinese merchants and a huge percentage of Shopify customers are Chinese and Chinese merchants. So we're targeting that group and trying to service them better with additional customer support because we're in China, we can do Chinese language support, [00:17:21] WeChat support, we have different payments that might be easier for merchants. On top of that, we have all these features that are just as good, perhaps even better than Shopify or with mobile e-commerce, features with marketing tools that can maybe go to Southeast Asia, not just seeing on Facebook, Instagram, that I think we benefit from the sort of recent cross-border movement.

[00:17:40] We have a furniture company that's selling into China market. They're opening stores in Singapore and other parts of Asia. We have a beauty accessory company, a platform online, offline platforms. They're looking to open in the U.S., but they have really good products. They have really good supply chain. I think it's really building a consumer experience [00:17:56] that's suitable for the Americans and the CEO spent time in LA before they [00:18:00] understand how the U.S. spends money. So we'll give it a shot, see if we can be successful in the U.S. market. So it's a theme that is actually very front and center in terms of how we look at a company, how big ultimately they can be. 

Rui: Yeah. For e-commerce it seems that there is a lot of ambition, not just towards developing markets, but developed markets as well. [00:18:19] A lot of people ask me about the anti-trust regulations. Then I personally thought that there were actually pretty positive as a development for the industry. We'd love to know your thoughts. 

Ron: Yeah, that's a hot topic, certainly globally and definitely in China. Yeah. I agree with that. I think it's a net positive for sure. [00:18:37] And certainly for us, we deal with startups all the time. Sure we would like to have a fair competition, fair place for everybody. So I think it's giving some confidence to startups in terms of how they can have a fair playing field and in a large company that China is no exception. All companies leverage their size to their advantage.

[00:18:55] And there's some really big Chinese companies out there. That's I think this sort of sets the tone and certain [00:19:00] practices are pushed to the limit and the government step in and say, Hey, you can do that. And I think that's good in general for the startup community. 

Rui: I'm honestly, struggling to find people who, at least people who work in the internet industry to think the antitrust regulations are bad. 

[00:19:12] We have questions from the audience. David, my questions related to the point you brought up earlier about some of these Shopify equivalent. 

Ron: Yeah, that's the space we've been fairly active and recent years. There's more of a focus on B2B versus B2C. B2C is brutal, as you guys know in the U.S. and China, you gotta fight against big companies and online traffic, user acquisition costs.

[00:19:35] These are all highly competitive things in China. It's very expensive. We've done a number of investments where they are essentially enabling e-commerce providing tools and supply chain support for the individual brands or for lots of KOL. That's 20 million plus KOLs in China doing various businesses online.

[00:19:53] They're essentially small businesses. They need tools, they need software, they need analytics, they need products and need [00:20:00] supply chain management. And we have a number of companies, you know, they have different slices and cuts at that kind of a thesis. That's one, another one is go offline. And that's a huge theme today in China as well.

[00:20:10] The offline online model before we talked about online to offline, but now it's offline to online, where people are flocking back to malls, people are going to a local tutoring building to take classes, and these companies need these stores or these educational shops. They need IT solutions. They need online marketing.

[00:20:28] They need an online presence. And we have a company, actually, a few that enable that and build brands for them, get traffic, create curriculum for them. And we do revenue share with companies that, you know, offline that have certain presence. So those are all themes that have been pursued and we have portfolios in those areas.

[00:20:44] And also, I would say cross border, too, not just Shopify model, we have also other models to help these merchants to enter, deliver goods to other parts of the world. South America is a big market for us now, for Chinese merchants and makers. And we have a portfolio that helps them in B2B for that market to give you a [00:21:00] taste, but that's a big focus for us right now.

Guest: [00:21:03] Very quick questions. The first is how do you advise your entrepreneurs? If they have an opportunity to go deeper into China or say, go to Indonesia, how do you guide them to navigate that kind of trade off? And then the second one is it's just really awesome for Americans to really experience what Ali has done, and WeChat has done from a FinTech perspective. [00:21:20] Is there a room for FinTech startups in China right now? 

Ron: Good questions. Hard to answer because they're big questions, but there's short answers too. It's just very difficult for a foreign company to come to China for obvious reasons, to be very honest. My first advice is don't come. And then part of that answer is to test the will of the CEO, whether they want to come, if they say, oh, okay, if I'm not coming, then they should definitely not come because it is brutal.

Guest: [00:21:44] The Chinese companies go deeper into China. Should they look seriously at Indonesia or Brazil or some other large market that might have a similar need? 

Ron: I think it depends on how they think. So much of success in a company and a CEO is their mindset. That it depends on the mindset. If their mindset is, Hey, China's too brutal [00:22:00] and they may go to Southeast Asia. I'm not sure that's the right way to think about it. If they say, Hey, China's big, I’m going to do well. And we can do well in Southeast Asia. I, in general that mindset more, but for most things, China is big enough for these startups. 

Guest: Has it been taken as FinTech innovation. Now in the hands of the big guys are to start his stuff anyway.

Ron: [00:22:19] You know, that's a question we are debating internally. It is a good question to revisit. Certainly six months ago, a year ago, the answer is no, there's no more opportunity for startups, but I think the landscape has settled down if you would, if that's the right word where a government is clear on some of its policies.

[00:22:35] Well, the PDP lending space has been cleaned up. And then the government, a lot of it is government driven is very much open to new ideas. So is there peer to peer insurance opportunities out there? Is there some defy opportunities out there that can be survivable in China? It's hard to say.[00:22:51] We're kind of exploring that. 

Guest: I'm just curious from your perspective, it's definitely a market shift over the last decade, both in terms of RMB deployment, [00:23:00] as well as the rise of new things on, that is our market. And you as well as in the backdrop of the last several years of some of the Chinese internet companies, either delisting from the U S exchanges and or launching secondary lessons in Hong Kong, do you think that this is a shift that's more or less just going to continue accelerating?

Ron: [00:23:20] There's a lot of moving pieces. When you have the domestic market, the star market and Asia market being more open, more robust, open, meaning you can be an offshore company or list on shore that didn't happen until recently. And of course, JVs, you can go public in China, locals, domestic stretcher companies. So, this has essentially opened up US dollar investors into the Chinese IPO market, taking companies public, which is a very huge kind of movement.

[00:23:45] And then more robust, you have different rules that allow the exchanges to have more volume and better regulation. So we're more confident than ever that we can take some of our companies public in China as an exit mechanism. So you got that. And do you have also foreign [00:24:00] capital flow into China? China's more open to that.

[00:24:02] In fact, we have set up vehicles to convert our US dollar funds into RMD investments offshore, as if we have RMB that didn't happen a few years ago. So China is open for business that's for sure. And the Gnostic where the money is coming from, they enjoy the foreign investments. And then you have Hong Kong making a run to become a technology hub for Asia, for sure.

[00:24:21] Then maybe perhaps for the world and attracting a lot of the Chinese listed companies, us back home. So these are all trends that are very visible and there's no reason those are stopping at the same time us market. What can you say about the U.S. market? That's a rollercoaster. You try not to look at it every day, but it's robust as ever.

[00:24:38] And a lot of the companies that don't really well they're from China. In fact, we have knock on wood. We should have three IPOs this quarter in the U.S. from our funds, various funds and some of the top tech companies, internet companies, fast-growing consumer companies are still looking at U.S. as a primary option because it's still way ahead in terms of all the regulation and the [00:25:00] focus from the investors.

[00:25:00] And then the floats coverage with the infrastructure is still the most advanced. Can all three things co-exist? I think so. I think they can. Any moment in time. I think that might be a movement from one era going from one to another. But I think because of China's more and more high quality companies coming to China, I think everybody, U.S., Hong Kong, China itself would benefit from the exit and capital market.

Rui: Bankers [00:25:22] are going to be busy. 

Guest: You mentioned high speed railway. This very interesting figure that from Beijing to Shanghai is the same distance as  Boston to Chicago, and the high speed rail away from Beijing Shanghai costs half compared to Amtrak. And it takes about four hours for us with Amtrak, and Chicago to Boston is 22 hours.

[00:25:41] Yeah, that's the kind of difference. My question is related to semiconductors. What is the view in terms of investment going to send a conductor in China, be able to truly build a cell reliance supply chain in China. And what is your based analysis? Thank you. 

Ron: I used to work for Intel. I started my [00:26:00] career at Intel and I worked in the fab.

[00:26:02] I wasn't working at Intel capital. I had a real job as they say, in the full-time processes and sort of my venture career in Semis. There are certain laws and Semis that I don't think can ever be broken. And I'm not talking about Moore's. So I'm talking about all kinds of laws and these things cost a lot of money, cycle time for consumers can be too short, for the large, some of the large chips you're selling, cycles are really long, competition, but there's all these sort of things you learned from testing.

[00:26:28] It seems like those things don't matter today. All the companies can go public. With various small revenue, there's a certain amount of bubble going on there for sure. And like any sector when there's a bubble, then most companies don't make it. I don't think there's going to be an exception here. So we're looking carefully in the space and trying to pick our battles.

[00:26:44] We like high-end products where there's a higher barrier. And those efforts can be perhaps having a lot more capital can help them. And then those high end products usually have very sophisticated teams and hopefully we can create a sort of a [00:27:00] positive loop around more capital, more barrier, high quality teams and go after big markets.

[00:27:05] And part of it is the Chinese IPO market has been very open to small, early stage companies going public and that's euphoria among the investors, but these things have cycles. And I think we're getting a peak right now. I was looking for partners and ideas and projects to work with.

[00:27:20] And I would call the golden triangle of unicorns, right? The Beijing Shanghai, Silicon valley triangle. Maybe you have to add New York or some point if the sort of FinTech takes off there. And there's so much more collaboration. I think there's a lot of, you know, sort of headline news of tension among the countries.

[00:27:35] But what I see on the ground is a lot of collaboration and I think that's what everybody's really focused on. Cross the borders. I hope not just on investments, but there's people working together on interesting ideas, that makes the world better. 

Rui: Thank you again for joining us in your early morning from Singapore, Ron.

Ron: [00:27:50] Thank you.